Deep FX for iOS?

csborgman · December 18, 2019, 11:42pm

I have the desktop version and recently downloaded the trial iOS version. I think what you all are trying to do is very smart by offering effects to the dry guitar signal that actually helps the tone sound more synth-like. The Deep Expressor, is great, some nice tones from that side only. I’d like to buy the iOS version too, but really interested if Deep FX will be added at some point.

It’s a bit overkill, but I use Roxsyn http://www.yonac.com/roxsyn/index.php on the guitar side of MG2 to add or enhance the synth sound. What this also does, if there’s any latency issue on the synth side blending with Roxsyn makes it impossible to hear.

It would be wonderful to see MG2 take some of the voicings and filter (ADSsR) technology used in Roxsyn to further enhance the Deep Expressor for BOTH desktop AND iOS.

Paul · December 19, 2019, 12:00pm

Deep Expressor is a mix between midi filtered audio and direct audio, and it can also be used in multiple ways to cover up latency. Sofar we havent decided when or whether we’d add it to iOS version. Your request is noted however.
Roxsyn uses ADSR with a triggered sequencer and filters to make 3 distorted pitchshifted signals sound like a synthesizer. That is a cool trick, and you don’t need real pitch tracking as such for that.
The demand however for such stuff not that high sofar: the sound variety obtainable via such techniques is allways more limited as a real synthesizer: the advantage is nearly allways more on the playability side than on the quality of the output. Meaning: you get a few unique sounds, but not more. Whereas real synths have virtual endless varieties of sound…
The most requested direct synth sound is a filtered saw, something like the Roland GR300.
I’ve got a quiet good direct poly saw synth working and running here, but we don’t know yet if there is a demand for it.

csborgman · December 20, 2019, 4:40am

Roxsyn uses ADSR with a triggered sequencer and filters to make 3 distorted pitchshifted signals sound like a synthesizer.

Looks like the update to GR300 is the Boss SY300 BOSS - SY-300 | Guitar Synthesizer Seems they use the same tech…? Roxsyn also seems to be using the same tech, but is $19 and the SY300 is $700, so yeah, I bought MG2, Roxsyn and Fishman TriplePlay all for less! They all have their places in the workflow. But without a doubt, MG2 for $99 is the best value for using real synths. FTP takes Midi to Guitar to the next level.

I agree this audio filtering is a “cool trick” and not nearly as useful nor in demand as using a real “synth.” To me, it seems more of the sounds, no matter how many voices or sequenced it still sounds like a distorted guitar. But, mixing this sudo-synth sound with real synth adds punch and almost zero latency felt or heard.

DeepFX is a good tool and a great start, would like to see more from it in the future.

Whey would you NOT add the DeepFX to iOS? Not many people are going to buy both so those that are only using the iOS version are missing out on a really good feature. Of course, they can do as I did and buy Roxsyn, but it’s really overkill when you are just adding a little something to the synth, not distracting from it.

Anyway, yes, please count this consumer’s vote for DeepFX for iOS. Also, when will there be an update to DeepExpressor and what might be new features? If you can, could you explain more about how this (overlooked?) tool works? What exactly is “midi filtered audio?” Is it not “zero” latency like the direct audio?

csborgman · December 20, 2019, 4:42am

What does that mean? Can you do a video with audio samples? The consumer will let you know if there is enough interest in it. I’m sure interested in knowing more.

Paul · December 20, 2019, 10:50am

Roxsyn is not polyphonically changing stuff, it doesnt alter the waveshapes of the notes, it is ptichshfiting->distortion->filter->sequencer. It is an odd duck: it is not what generally is considered a direct synth. A direct synth is a GR300, a SY300, and my simple poly saw from the lab.

But our Deep Expressor is an odd duck also: it is an hybrid between a midi synth and an effect.
The total signal is divided in a part that is not yet detected midiwise (called “pluck”) and the sustain part. The drawbars work on the sustainpart, like in a drawbar organ: it adjust the amount of harmonics of your original guitar tone.
The noisegate only works on the pluck part. The sound of the pluck is adjusted with the Plucktone knob.
The “Dynamics” and “Edge” apply on both pluck and sustain signals indivdually.
If you set the Attack knob to 100% pluck, you will have only the plucks before the midi sets in.
If you set the Attack knob to 100% sustain, you will have notes completely sync with midid, without the pluck.
If you keep the Attack knob in the middle, and raise the noisegate, you can delete soft plucks… It will take the sharp attack of softerplaying, giving you an extra dimension of expression.

The Sustain knob works very intelligently with the sustain signal. It measures the levels on the note start, and can keep them to that level. So it is a non compressing sustainer.
This concept is completely new, and I have a hard time explaining it to anybody.

The “Edge knob” actually is an overdrive on every drawbar, and on the pluck signal simultaneously.

The pluck signal has no latency, the sustain signal comes first when the midi hits in. The total output therefor has no latency, there is just no drawbars at the pluck part.

The fact is, that these possibilities are so new, that there is no real comparison with other effects. We can not say “it is better than X” or “more Y than X” because it is so weirdly different.
We just added it so see whether people would pick it up.
There are endless variations on what we can build with this technique, but it is really our userbase that decides whether we put the energy into it.

Paul · December 20, 2019, 11:01am

Direct synthesis examples from my lab. Here there is no midi involved: these are direct spectral transformations.

csborgman · December 20, 2019, 10:10pm

Paul! This is some amazing stuff! I’m also following your facebook page. So Roxsyn is using different tech from SY300, but to me, many of the sounds seem very similar, although SY300 seems to have a more synth-ish sound (I don’t own one). I just thought it was better patches. I don’t understand the tech being used here but is it safe to say that you can get similar sounds from the different technologies? What might I listen for that differentiates the 2 technologies?

What tech is EXH using in pedals like HOG2 https://www.ehx.com/products/hog2 and any of the keys/organ pedals https://www.ehx.com/products/b9 ? The HOG2 seems something like what the Deep Expressor is doing, no? HOG2 has alot more stuff going on (only speaking about the guitar audio, not about guitar to midi) but is it similar tech? Could DeepFX ever be developed to the point of offering HOG2 flexibilities? Again, not knowing the tech used, so I ask.

I understand wanting to see if there is a demand for a very specific module, but some times you have to be like Steve Jobs, and just build it, and they will come. He never asked the consumer if they would like something between an iphone and a MacBook, he just built a flexible tool and let everyone figure out how to use it. I for one, never thought I would want an iPad although I’ve been using Mac since the Performa days. But, I bought one and use it all the time.

Of course, JO doesn’t have Steve Job’s capital, who does? So, as any good marketer knows it’s all about educating the consumer. I for one never thought twice about the DeepFX because of little promotion, very little hype, especially by consumers, on youtube for example. It’s all about playing a synthesizer, hearing those synth sounds with little talk about the guitar side or the benefits it offers.

Guitar pitch to midi is not a perfected technology but making the most out of the direct guitar signal is a way to get it almost perfect. The application should be considered, especially in live playing where playing a synth pad and guitar chording or octaves etc… can be a game-changer. But sometimes you need the guitar signal to enhance the synth tone or eliminate any latency, that’s when having a more synth-like sound works better than a normal guitar tone. And that’s what I’d love to see more in DeepFX. Also, more videos showing how amazing that side really is. I like that some factory patches are only guitar, but again, it’s educating the consumer.

Thank you for the in-depth explanation about the Deep Expressor module. Very interesting stuff. Everyone should read this to get the full potential out of it.

How do you incorporate your lab sounds to MG2? I think you have to! It’s too good to just sit in your lab! LOL If the guitar side could be developed to the point of being like a really good pedal AND is really promoted, you could add an easy 20% more sales, and charge a bit more too.

Anyway, I have Fishman TP and the hardware works great, but if you don’t have a good amp sim with effects for the guitar side you are limited. To me, this is where (besides price and no extra PU needed) makes MG2 a very exciting and unique option.

Thanks Paul.

Paul · December 20, 2019, 10:40pm

HOG and POG are a sort of pitchshifters, they add harmonics on top of the existing ones… So they can sound very simular to a triple pitchshifter like Roxsyn.
The HOG2 is basically a more elaborate version of the original HOG, with midid remote controls.

Deep Expressor does not add harmonics, it cuts or boosts original harmonics, and uses the midi info to cut,boost or alter exact harmonics of an exact note.
That way you can have lean tones with less harmonics than the original. The HOG will allways add more harmonics to the original sound, making the sound more dense.

I did a lot of Deep Expressor supported vids, and the factory patches have lots of examples with it. But most of our users “just want the midi”. Within our niche (guitarsynthesis, pitch to midi), non midi stuff is a sub niche.
That said: we do get nice responses on that every now and then. But untill now the deepFX stuff is more like icing on the cake, but not something that would sell on itself.
It is simular with the Roland synths: e.g. the COSM direct synths in the GR55 got little attention in general, users only focusing on the midi sounds.

Thanks for your nice words about my lab stuff… Marketingwise the new directsynth stuff might be a bit more something people know, since it uses sawtooth waves and creates a connection with the old analog GR type of sounds.

SnowBlack · December 21, 2019, 9:29am

I use DeepFX all the time, often mixed with acoustic guitar and layered with synth, and I’m fortunate enough to have it in the iOS version. This came about through being on the beta test program and inheriting the presets from a earlier test version. So the released code includes DeepFX but you can’t access it without the presets. So it would appear not to be a technical issue. Perhaps Paul can enlighten us on that? I would suggest unlocking it with an in-app purchase and see how users respond. As an owner of several Roland/Boss guitar synths (VG-8, VG-99, GR-55, GP-10 and SY-300) I really like the sound and responsiveness of DeepFX and now rarely use the hardware, preferring the flexibility of an iPad with AUM. I would love to see MG2 stretch it’s legs, or maybe just spin-off DeepFX as a separate app marketed more as a guitar FX than MIDI. Most guitarists are still very traditional in their outlook and you might sell more to that mindset than to MIDI guitarists. I suspect EHX have more commercial success with their synth pedals than Roland & Boss because of the wider appeal (and not needing special pickups).

Paul · December 21, 2019, 12:02pm

tnx Snowblack…
Releasing deepFX as an IAP on iOS is not a technical issue indeed: we just didn’t introduce it at 2.5 release because the general product needed all the care. There addtiionally were some startup problems with the IAP system, and the release timeline was very spedup by our old app being broken with IOS12, and many users being anxious to get their old functionality back.
We’ll discuss it here.

SnowBlack · December 21, 2019, 12:19pm

Thanks for feedback, Paul. As an app developer myself I know what a pain IAP can be! I occasionally have MG2 crash in AUM, my preferred working environment as I like to layer multiple synths rather than use MG2 standalone with AU plugins, but I think that is as much due to me overloading AUM as any issues with MG2. Keep up the good work!

Paul · December 21, 2019, 12:35pm

the iOS Auv3 system is not 100% stable, but it improved much with the latest ipadOS13 releases.