MG3 support for 7-string guitars and lower tunings

Hello,

I have been enjoying MG3 greatly, it functions so much nicer than the GR-55 and Graphtech Floyd Rose system I put together some time ago. The tracking and capabilities had me hooked as soon as I started tweaking things, so I went ahead and purchased the lifetime license due to this.

But there is one main issue, which is a big deal to me; Not being able to use my lower registers with it. I tune down 1 whole step, and use 7 and 6 string guitars. This means that my entire lower register on the 7 string is unavailable and I’m missing the low open and first fret notes (D and Eb) on the 6 string, due to this.

6 string tuning: DGCFAD
7 string tuning: ADGCFAD

Would be very nice to have this available in MG3 please.
Thanks

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MG3 is still in beta and does not yet support notes lower than E2. MG2 can be configured for Drop D tuning for a 6 string. I think, but don’t know for sure, that your license should also work for MG2, so I suggest giving it a try. As far as support for a 7 string, someone else will need to speak to that.

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Now everything depends on if you are looking for a MIDI Guitar software that is retunable to altered tunings, or if you are looking for a software that can deal with your guitars being in altered tunings. Those are two very different things of course.

To begin with, let’s make this very important distinction between the retuning capabilities in MG3 and MGHex:

MG3 uses your incoming (single stream of audio from your guitar’s standard magnetic pickups for its MIDI conversion. It listens to, and analyses one source of audio: distilling and extracting from this everything you get in (standard) MG3 MIDI/MPE. Up to six (simultaneous) pitches polyphony with accompanying individual pitchbend, brightness, pressure and strike messages for each and every pitch registered. What is NOT extracted is information about which string these pitches are played on.

MGHEX use the six (6) audio streams from a hexaphonic/divided PU system (think of a hexaphonic pickup as having six microphones - one for each string), and can that way create unique MIDI/MPE messages for six dedicated MIDI channels. There is no specific message telling us what string is being used here either, but it is conveyed by the MIDI channel distribution. If we use the analysed AUDIO stream from the high E string going into the hexaphonic Pickup (high E microphone) to create MIDI that we send out on MIDI channel 2, and uniquely pair each string with a MIDI Channel, we get something like implicit information about “what strings we are using” sent to our instruments. But there isn’t any actual MIDI messages telling us this. We can only infer this from what channel is being used.

We know that the standard MG3 tracker send out information on multple MIDI channels 2-7 according to a principle where the first note is sent on Ch2, a second simultaneously ringing note (interval) is sent on Ch 3, and if a three note chord is played , channels 2,3 and 4 will be in use (and so on for any added notes) A full six string chord will use channels 2-7.
Why can’t we order them to implicitly convey this information about which string they are played on, now? Because there is no such information.

Now to the questions about retuning:

With MGHEX there is of course every possibility to retune whatever is sent out on the channels at a 1) Tracker level, 2) Chain level or 3) Instrument level because we have this strict one-to-one relation between string and channel.

I often retune my Kontakt or UVI Falcon sounds by loading six instances of an instrument and simply retune it on a per channel basis. Here is an example where I went for a very odd Joni Mitchell (Black Crow) tuning using some synth in Falcon:

So if you are not necessarily looking for the feeling you get from the strings with a particular altered tuning, many (six string) tunings are already avalible. But, of cousre, you have to set them up yourself, avaiting their inclusion in the MGHEX MIDI Machine tool box.

But seven string tunings then? Well, If we have a divided 7 string PU it wouldn’t be much of a problem in theory, I guess. Even though we know that tracking is notoriosly harder with the lower frequncy pitches, we are still talking about a monophonic tracker. So if it works for bass it should work for a seventh string as well. But it calls for a revamp of the existing MGHEX tracker to incorporate also these fringe examples, and I can’t see how that comes very high on the priority list right now.

It is way more likely that a seven stringed guitar is going to get access to MIDI/MPE via the standard MG3 tracker with support for extended range, and then you can tune your guitar to whatever you feel like (within reason).

Personally I like the idea of retuning the software though. I would want to play the same instrument but be able to call up the occasional alternate tuning to easier play some Holdsworth, Gambale or Joni stuff, and then go back to being my old boring self again in standard.

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Hey LoFiLeif, thanks for the info! Also I watched your YT vids on configuring MG3, it was very informative, much appreciated!

I’ll add a little more about my use case, to try to narrow down the scope:

I’m using MG3 with audio input only, from Cubase Pro or Ableton Live.
I’m not using a hex pickup, just using the audio signal.

My instruments are all tuned the same, 1 whole step down, across all strings (straight tuning, no drop). I do-not need to change my tuning on the guitars or in the software.

The 7 string guitars are tuned exactly like the 6 string, only with the additional low A string added; Typically this is a B1, such as on on 5 strings basses, but I’m tuned down 1 whole step so it’s an A1 for me.

So the notes that are not-available from my 7 string guitars to MG3 are: A1, A#1, B1, C2, C#2, D2, D#2

And the notes that are not-available from my 6 string guitars to MG3 are: D2, D#2

I can live without them of course, but since there’s a place to request features, here is this request!

Thanks again

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HI

Glad you found some of my stuff useful!

I really can’t do much to help you at this point. I just wanted to shine a light on what is possible today (retuning six strings with the MGHEX tracker output), and be clear as to why this work with MGHEX as opposed to standard MG3. Anything beyond that, like support for lower tuned instruments and so on, you will have to wait for Jamorigin to actually facilitate in the software in any coming update. I don’t have any info on when this could be, I am afraid.

Fingers crossed it is not too far off :crossed_fingers:

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Ditto to this request. In truth it’d be nice to have a user specified number of strings (for 8-strings, 9-strings, and up).

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The 6-string limitation of guitar-to-midi is what has held me back from bothering with it for years now. I’ve played 8-string guitar since the mid-90s, when you mostly had to get them custom-made. Nowadays they’re commonplace. Basically what I heard from everyone I asked is the reason all the guitar-to-MIDI stuff is limited to six strings is because everyone uses a Roland standard and that’s what Roland decided the limit would be a few decades ago when guitar-to-MIDI was new. Makes sense to some degree if you have a specialized pickup and preamp with one per string doing the work, but if it’s all done in software, you’d think the limit could be ignored. Of course, the low frequency problem is always going to be an issue, but that applies regardless of whether you use multiple pickups and preamps or none at all.

In any case, MIDI to me is not a performance tool so much as a composition and transcription tool, so all I really care about is getting all the note information out of the guitar to the software I’m using to transcribe or compose. But I can do that manually just as I’ve always done, so until any guitar-to-MIDI “solution” lets you work with at least 8 strings, there’s no point in bothering with convoluted workarounds like installing two MIDI preamps and so on.

this is a physics problem and it doesn’t matter if it is boss or jamo or whoever writing the code. note detection below D2 just takes too much time.

the limit is not the number of strings. if your 8 strings were all tuned to D2 or above they would all be detected. the limit is on the pitch range.

the only solution i see as practical for notes below D2 is laser pitch detection.

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I also play a 7 string( no hex). It would be very awesome to make use of them all with MG3.

+1 on this request.

Sorry for reviving the necro-thread

Thanks, glad it came back from the dead! :zombie: You also reminded me that I owned this software, haven’t used it since the OP due to the limitations.

If I’m understanding the intention of reviving this thread, all interested should know that MG3’s standard guitar tracker can now (at least as of 3.0.66 on Mac–don’t remember the exact version it first appeared) track down to C2, hexaphonically.

I was particularly interested in this feature as well, as my standard guitar tuning is Guitar Craft Standard (C2-G2-D3-A3-E4-G4), and I gotta say yeah, it’s awesome to be now able to play the SWAM Cello from my home tuning without the need for any Transposers.

For what this is worth though, while trying to “work around” the E2 limitation for some of the things I want to do, I was kinda surprised at how easy it was for me to adapt to the pitch range of each of the SWAM wind instruments, without worrying about “using all the available fret space” on my tuning. So when I’m playing the SWAM bassoon for example, I know that its lowest pitch is the first fret on my fifth string, and it has just been much more intuitive than I’d have thought to just play the instrument down as far as it goes. The SWAM English horn and oboe instruments each bottom out at a different pitch, but in general that doesn’t seem to have produced any significant problem either.

So I then adapted this thinking to the SWAM Cello, using an 8vb Transposer in MG3 and thinking of the cello Instrument as "bottoming out” not on my open low C which wouldn’t track, but the next available C on the fifth string. So, full range on the Instrument, just played 8va on my controller (guitar). And I had just really started to accept that as not a problem (it’s just another Instrument after all, right?) when the expanded guitar tracker appeared, and…yeah, I do rather like being able to treat my 4 lowest strings as “just like the cello”, because they are actually pitched just like the cello. :nerd_face:

Anyway, just an insight into my thinking, if any may find it helpful.

Hello,

Thanks for the responses & details. My intention was primarily to add support to the wish for the extended range. It’s great to know that the hexaphonic range is down to C2 as it suggests our hopes for the extended guitar range are seemingly more likely.

I just bought MG3 for one purpose: transcribing my guitar while I play, and transcribing older tracks I can’t remember how I played.Not to suggest I won’t use it otherwise, transcribing is the value to me, not the real-time midi triggering. I’m just trying to document my music into lead-sheets with as little extra work as possible and MG3 is phenomenal for this.

My standard DAW template has 3 tracks for recording my guitar. One takes in the Wet signal from my processed guitar, one takes DI, and now a third has MG3 as an insert FX and records MIDI. It’s a great time to be a guitarist…except the music industry sucks…but I digress.

Given that, I’d like to suggest to @JamO that maybe a non-optimal-for-real-time extended range could be a big benefit, at least for this purpose. Perfect shouldn’t block good enough :wink:

I understand very well the effect of lower frequencies on FFTs, and consequently latency. For transcription, this isn’t so important because I have a constant offset that I can trim to align. As it is, for non-live use, there’s already a noticeable delay; making it slightly longer won’t matter for recorded performances as it’s just correcting for a longer delta.

My proposal would be to add an extended range (down to B1 for standard 7-strings) with the caveat that the latency is greater. It could even be called-out in the presets as a non-realtime mode to drive the point home and reduce the number of complaints. Then we can at least capture our low strings even if it’s sub-optimal, while patiently waiting for JamOrigin to brew some new witchcraft.

I will add that I’ve read some discussion about MBx being the solution to the low end, but for me that’s cold comfort. I don’t presently intend to invest another $150 just to get to my low-B, nor do I really intend to invest in that for my bass playing, which is mostly monophonic, and I have several adequate free tools to convert audio to midi for transcription. I think I’ll try to add one of those after MG3, with a limited frequency range, to see if I can just catch these notes that way until things evolve.

Best wishes for the holidays & new year.

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Hi @Androo, I wish you a Merry Christmas too.

An extra transcription function in a special capture mode, e.g. for GuitarPro, would be desirable, even if it weren’t in real time.
It would be a great benefit for many guitar teachers, as well as for beginners, those returning to the instrument, and players who want to archive their playing style exactly, like you.

At present, you would still have to invest in the Hex version, as this is the only version that has the most accurate note recognition, because it is currently the only one that also recognises which string the note is played on, which would be important for transcription in tab mode.

This recognition function in MG3Hex for individual strings played is currently still missing in MG3 Standard. Let’s be optimistic and see what next year brings us :slight_smile:

for transcription purposes, i can still see a possibility for incorporating midi bass into your setup.

you could add another track, also set to receive the guitar’s dry signal, with midibass and a note filter.

then you’d merge the midi output stream back into your midi recording.

i think that might work.

Hello, good suggestions. I haven’t invested in a hex system and don’t particularly want to, which is what makes MG so attractive (else I’d need hex pups for 6&7 string gtrs).

For the transcriptions I’m doing, think Lead-sheet more than scoring or tabs. My specific goal is to get the chord names, timing, and melodies. I’m compromising on the lack of exact fingerings.

While midi bass would be super to catch these lower notes, I don’t think I will buy another license to get 5 more notes of range. I’m currently setting up another plug-in along after a frequency splitter so that the out-of-range notes go there and generate (monophonic) midi notes & merge with the high-passed signal going to MG3. I’m still fiddling with this configuration but it seems like it may work okay.

it sounds like you don’t need another option, but just in case the submarine two string pickup is another way to get the 7th (or 6th and 7th) string out of the primary mix.

That’s something I’ve never seen before! Neat idea, I like it; though I am a bit surprised there’s a market for such a niche pickup. Thanks for the suggestion.