Willl a miced classical work with MG2?

[cooltouch]

Hey all, I’ve been playing classical for many years, so I just did a search on the topic of ‘nylon string’ and found a few threads on using nylon stringed guitars with under-saddle piezos and that they worked very well. As it so happens I have a classical that is set up this way, but my favorite classical is purely acoustic. Which got me to wondering – can anyone here address how well MG2 will track a miced classical?

If it matters at all, the room I would use is acoustically dead, so there would be no reverberation artifacts being created. Can’t say that about the dog, though. (He’s barking right now.)

[Herold]

I have never tried to put a microphone in front of an acoustic guitar but I have just tried it right now and it works perfectly.
After that, it’s up to you to adapt your playing to eliminate unwanted artifacts but I don’t think it should be a serious problem.

[sadicus]

It will “work” but it depends on your playing style as to how good it will track and what VST instruments used etc. I always start tracking with a simple piano and blend it in until it sounds nice with the guitar. …I just tested it with a 6/8 finger picking style Am and it tracks good today. One of the nice things about Hardware like GI-20 is you can choose which notes are MIDI and really blend in Guitar and only a few notes of MIDI. MG2 if you strum all 6 strings Am chord, MG2 will also send all 6 strings Am chord MIDI. Where as Hardware you can have only the A and D string as MIDI. One fun thing is if you talk it will MIDI your voice!

[felixchen]

@sadicus

One of the nice things about Hardware like GI-20 is you can choose which notes are MIDI and really blend in Guitar and only a few notes of MIDI. M

I tried Nylon classical Guitar input to ASIO device through MIC. MG2 does the same as Steel string guitar. That is exactly the reason I prefer MG2 to MIDI pickup because I plan to use MG2 to convert my playing to MIDI in order to use NI’s new PICKED NYLON VST.

However, although string bending is not common in Nylon guitar, Vibrato is a must. From my experience, MG2 does not handle vibrato accurately, regardless nylon string or steel string.

When will MG3 be release?

Felix Chen

[LoFiLeiF]

Hi Felix! What part about vibrato do you think is problematic in MG2? Is it vibrating on a whole chord, or separate notes in any one chord or multiple notes context? For those cases, you are well-advised to wait for MG3 with the MPE capabilities where pitch bend data is related and connected to each occurring note. But MG2 does in fact do a perfectly fine job of tracking bends and vibrato today already. It is just a matter of matching pitch bend ranges in the MG2 software with the virtual instrument you are playing. I play plenty of instruments with vibrato, and I am perfectly happy with how the software delivers. One example:

SWAM Bass Clarinet with MIDI Guitar 2.2.1

There are however specific problems with nylon string virtual instruments, that might need some special attention. You may perhaps need to take a closer look at MIDI MACHINE scripts to help you with that:

https://jamosapien.com/uploads/default/original/1X/a7c2e0b10feb72e346a1d3eb6bec876219b2c922.lua

You can also have a look at my tackling the nylon string virtual instruments and my takeaway on that if you feel like!

Pitch bend, fret size, and virtual instruments: does it matter for MIDI Guitar 2.2.1?

For any updates or information on MG3, I would advise you to subscribe to the mailing list on the Roadmap page.
https://www.jamorigin.com/roadmap

[cooltouch]

Hi all, thanks for the responses.

Well, I just purchased a license for MG2, and am looking forward to giving it a good tryout. It’s late right now, so things will have to wait until tomorrow morning. I’ll report back regarding my results.

[felixchen]

Hi LoFiLeiF,

I meant Vibrato by slight push/pull action on “single” string.

MG2 is very sensitive to the vibrato, and its sensitivity settings (noise gate too) does not help. MG2 either ignores the vibrato or recognizes it as non-continuous semi-tones.

Also If you have noticed as I did that MG2 responds to vibrato MUCH BETTER in live performance than in the converted MIDI file.

Perhaps that is the DAW’s problem – I tried Reaper.

I open the converted MIDI file with MIDI editor in DAW but I cannot find where MG2 stores the vibrato action. Vibrato is supposed to a modulation wheel CC, but modulation CC data is empty in the MIDI file.

So far, almost all the demo of MG2 is LIVE performance. That is impressive. But the MIDI file is rarely discussed.

Look forward to MG3.

Regards,

Felix Chen

[LoFiLeiF]

Hi Felix! Single string vibrato is not a problem for MG2 if you have your pitch bend settings matched! Try it in standalone if you believe it is some issue with the DAW, but I assure you, you can get the MG2 software to follow your every (single string) vibrato in detail! It is the same vitae recorded vibrato. Look at these examples, where I have analyzed real recordings with the help of MIDI Guitar to get the most amount of detail out of it. The only thing I needed to focus on “fixing” is some appearances of extra notes due to reverb tails, echos or miscellaneous non intentional (spurious) notes generated:

The Archive: special edition - Jazz mockups using SWAM Saxes, Midi Guitar 2, and other instruments

But it is certainly not as easy as recording with a particular setting and, granted that works, expect a MIDI file to play all instruments flawlessly by virtue of having worked that one time. The next instrument perhaps doesn’t even use the same set of MIDI information to begin with, let alone the same pitch pend range (if even used at all).
The MOD wheel (CC1) can be assigned to use for pitch bend action for keyboard players, but what you are looking for is the actual registered pitch bend data set from the MIDI messages recorded. You can see (here in Logic) what it looks like, and where to find it. I don’t use reaper unfortunately.

There is nothing really special about the pitch bend part in a MIDI file, other than that it is not a MIDI CC per se, but is instead showing up elsewhere in the MIDI message data bundle. This is what it looks like in Abelton :

This is just a MIDI file recording, with no instrument opened. I moved the strings around little withPITCH BEND range set to 2. See if you can find anything like pitch bend in Reaper?

[felixchen]

Hi LoFiLeiF,

thanks for the help.

(1) The only thing I needed to focus on “fixing” is some appearances of extra notes…

Yes, same here when I check the converted MIDI file. There are quite a lot of extra notes. Wont that cleaing up bother you?

(2) I has always thought MIDI only registers action in semitone steps. That means “Pitch Quantization”. In your second screen snapshot, the green bar which presents the analog vibrato sound, is in piano’s semitone, isn’t it?

As vibrato range is smaller than semitone, therefore, I supposed vibrato is recored in CC1 (MOODULATION) in the audio to MIDI conversion (although I dont know how MG2 makes it?)

Now that you mention the vibrato details are recorded but not in CC1. That is beyond my understanding. But I am fine with that as long as the result is acceptable.

pitch bend settings seems the only way to get correct vibrato in the result in MG2 But I found it difficult to set it well once and for good for the whole guitar playing session.

Regards,

Felix Chen

[LoFiLeiF]

Hi again Felix.

With regard to (1), there really aren’t that many notes to fix. If you are referring to a MIDI file from your own recorded guitar it might be a lot due to your input (what goes in as audio, whether intended or not, comes out the other side as MIDI as long as it is interpretable as pitch). The software doesn’t really add notes in any other cases than with interval interpretation issues (semitone, bigger chords etc).So, of course I would like to not have to do it, but it doesn’t bother me.

(2) The note grid may be in semitones on a pianoroll, but the sounding notes pitch is a combination of that note & its pitch bend data. So you can have the same note C3 on a piano roll sounding like a C# or a B depending on the accompanying PB data.

Crash course in MIDI:
MIDI is a language (unified standard), consisting of a transmission protocol and voice messages primarily. View the transmission protocol as the language grammar and syntax, and the voice messages as the words and sentences in it if it makes sense for you. The Voice messages, in turn, is stuff like note on, note off messages, polyphonic Key pressure, Control Change (CC:s), Program change, Channel pressure, and Pitch Bend etc.

Pitch bend is (or has) its own part of the message, apart from the CC:s,so looking at the CCs won’t help you here.If you look at what is sent out from MIDI Guitar 2 in its MIDI MONITOR, you find “Pitch Wheel” values sent on Channel 1. Don’t mix this up with Mod Wheel.

" The pitch wheel is used to slide a note’s pitch up or down in cents (ie, fractions of a half-step). The Part affected by a particular Pitch Wheel message is the one assigned to the message’s MIDI channel"

So I suggest you interpret this as pitch bend data being sent on MIDI Channel 1. There is no mentioning CC1 here, which would be a Control Change 1 message, (sent on Channel 1 as well perhaps). These are two different things though. Check MIDI specifications for detail if you are intersted. The MIDI Association - Home