And yeah, I’m pretty happy with how this install turned out. Not the prettiest if you closely examine it, since it’s held on with hot glue and hope, but overall it works great.
This is my second with a subsix…it’s very useful for my stage setup. I really recommend a TRRS male to female adapter, that way you can secure the jacks (they plug in by my pup selector switch, you can see it on the right). …The first guitar I put it in, I just have dangling cables and jeeze do those get annoying.
The pickup works best when the sensors sit around 3–8 mm below the strings.
Fingerpickers often prefer it closer (around 3–4 mm) for detail and sensitivity.
Strummers usually set it slightly lower (6–7 mm) for a more balanced response.
Height is adjusted using the custom M3 screws with left- and right-handed threads. In most guitars, the screw range provides all the adjustment you need. If you reach the limit of screw adjustment and still need more height, you can add the D-shaped neoprene pads under the pickup. This provides additional height adjustment and ensures the pickup sits at the correct level even on thicker or unusually shaped tops.
i was quoting the info from the following link. i’ve emailed submarine pickups to ask them to provide further guidance. the space between existing pickups recommendation is interesting. on some guitars i could see this being a problem.
height under E strings without baseplate (minimum)
6.3mm
Space between existing pickups
minimum
24mm
recommended
37mm
Height adjustment
distance between E strings and body
minimum
9mm
maximum
21.5mm
String spacing
E to E string distance
minimum
45.5mm
maximum
51.5mm
while i had the pickup off of the guitar i took a few pix, here’s what the insides looks like for those who might be interested:
I wonder if the coil windings are identical in every single pickup. And whether the installation orientation of the Subsix matters. The guitar of @the.david.v is obviously a leftie (if no picture mirroring issue).
Kimyo, you said 9 to 21 mm between the strings and the pickup, “they’re looking for 9-21mm distance between the e-strings and the pickup.” That is incorrect. The 9 mm to 21 mm specification is the minimum and maximum gap between the strings and the pickguard. It is the clearance of the strings from the guitar body or pickguard. The figures I referenced are suggested distances between the strings and the pickup.
yes i see that now. the numbers didn’t make sense to me as my total clearance between strings and pickguard is 8.5mm.
matching your info, this is what submarine emailed me:
The recommended height range for mounting the SubSix pickup is between 9mm and 21.5mm. For the distance between the pickup and guitar strings, start around 3-7mm and adjust to avoid buzzing and get the best sound. Closer distances (3-6mm) tend to suit fingerpicking styles, while further distances are better for louder strumming.
i installed the subsix on another guitar and the problem you’ve described is very noticeable.
i can make it happen on every set of strings. it’s especially bad as the held note starts to fade out.
this guitar has much more clearance, and the subsix is mounted too low (probably by 3-5mm). it may improve a bit when i get the pickup mounted properly, but i doubt the retriggering will go away completely.
if time allows i will mount it right and i’ll also do a side by side with the graphtech piezo pickups.
i will test with the pickup near the bridge. if that works i’ll have to eat my words, i have always thought that the theory that midi note detection works best with the pickup near the bridge was a result of roland’s inability to place the gk anywhere else.
i will also be sad because i really prefer the sound of the pickup near the neck. i guess i could always install two subsixes…..
Pitch to midi works best with the pickup close to the bridge because it lessens the problem of crosstalk from adjacent strings. The farther from the bridge, the greater the vibrational amplitude of a string which causes strings encroaching on adjacent pickups. It is not cosmetic, nor because of a logistics problem. Roland has been doing this a long time. Give them some credit.
I think the problem you have with the Subsix is that it is a powerful pickup. It is too “hot.” You want it to be close to the strings to limit crosstalk, but when it is close, it is too sensitive. You back it away and then you have the problem of crosstalk.
Roland and Boss have been refining their pickups over 50 years to find the right balance.
Yes, indeed this is a lefty. I also installed it upside down! It’s not supposed to matter, but in theory, since the strings are ‘backwards’ I think that would make its placement on my guitar ‘correct’. But my other subsix guitar has it installed right side up, and I don’t notice a difference between the two in terms of analog performance.
That was my way of thinking too. Thanks for checking to narrow down the root cause. I still believe that the position from the bridge is the answer, rather than the string distance.
it took me a while to find the extra nanogrip thingies. i’ve mounted the pickup about 2mm from the bridge. the problem continues.
my current theory is that the sound picked up via the surface mount is ever so slightly delayed as compared to that from the pickup. mg3hex is cancelling out the blip which occurs simultaneously, but the slightly delayed input is causing note offs.
hopefully these will help: (low E (left) held while notes are played on the A (right))
the strings are 6mm from the pickup. next i will bring it up closer and isolate it from the body as much as possible.
Glad (for my own sake) that the bridge positioning doesn’t solve it. Would be impossible to put one on a tele bridge.
I don’t know much about the way the hex tracker works, but it seems like the first note is playing, the second string is hit and its cross-talk is detected so it cuts out the signal, then resumes reading that string and sees it going as a new note. Maybe it would be possible to solve with an adjustment of how the cross-talk is handled (‘do not interrupt during cross-talk’ instead of ‘do not allow output during cross-talk’). Just a mostly-uninformed guess/hope that it can be fixed.
i mounted the pickup back at the neck using two layers of foam double stick tape.
this gives me just over 3mm between the strings and the pickup.
more importantly, it significantly reduces the issue. only with the E and A pair can i make it happen deliberately, and even then only 2-3 times out of 10, as compared to almost every time beforehand.
if the problem is confirmed to be the transmission of string sound via the body, it may be difficult for jamo to remedy this. when rejecting a neighboring string i assume it is ‘easy’ as the signal is essentially identical and occurs at exactly the same time.
the vibrations carried by the body will tend to alter the sound as well as delay it.
other than the isolation, another possibility is that most of the benefit resulted from moving the pickup closer to the strings.
It’s hard to imagine that a magnetic pickup would react to waves propagating through the wood. That completely contradicts its operating principle. You could try placing the pickup away from the strings, directly on the body, to see if it picks up any measurable or “visible” (in MG3 or DAW) signals.
aside from the last test, the pickup has been mounted directly to the body. on those it was as far from the strings as possible without routing a cavity.
there is no doubt that the subsix picks up noise via the body. it was inputting noise from my bridge springs until i physically muted them. springs + neural dsp rabea = a massive amount of very weird noise, btw.
this screencap shows the wav i posted above. circled in red are ‘double-taps’ on the E (displayed on top, sustaining) beginning exactly in sync with the plucked note on the A (bottom). if i’m reading audacity right the second taps are delayed by .8 msec.
i’m glad to consider all possibilities. if you have any other suggestions for testing please share them. on guitar 1 i was already planning to route out a cavity, now i’ll probably have to make that much deeper. guitar 2 has hex piezo so i’m not likely to make any permanent alterations.
if you think it would be helpful to record the piezo alongside the subsix i can do that.
I have similar issues with subsix–using neve 1073opx. Only thing that really helps is the gate but then sometimes notes don’t ring out on chords that are held out for more than few beats. Somewhat manageable with the gate.
